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February 21, 2011

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Rivrdog

The "Tobacco Road" solution. Yes, sometimes it is the only option which makes sense.

Ragin' Dave

Rivrdog - take that AFSCME goon that National sent you, multiply him by about 300,000, add in a healthy contempt of the law, civility, common courtesy or common sense, and you'll have a good idea of the public employee unions here in Wisconsin. Trying to extract the unions from politics in this state at this point would be futile at best. The only option they have left is the "nuclear" option.

I'm willing to bet that had the local public employee unions acted as you did when you were with the police, we wouldn't be at this situation.

Rivrdog

We're going to be at loggerheads on this one, Phil, because you aren't going to acknowledge the good things I offer about the whole idea of unions, you are only going to offer what you see as detriments to their use and existence. I don't care for forced unionization myself, prefer to see a system where you have the choice of not belonging to a union, and instead, taking whatever Management offers you in that job by the way of a compensation package. Companies don't like that idea, it adds expenses to their HR divisions, which have enough expenses with all the corporate political correctness that exists. Unions don't like it either, because that way, they don't get the low-hanging fruit of automatic membership increases when a company hires new workers.

I don't deny that unions need to restore their vision to their original purpose, and forget all the political alliances, in fact, if it could be done constitutionally, I would support a law that says that a union may only endorse, NOT fund, political parties. All attempts at this have failed in the courts, though.

I've only ever belonged to two unions, the Commercial Telegraphers (Western Union workers, back in the day) and my police union, which started out with AFSCME affiliation, but axed the National when they refused to help us negotiate a contract with an actual negotiator, instead sending a goon who knew nothing of Oregon labor law, the people he was to negotiate with, or anything else. After axing the National, our status with the County Government went up greatly. Our endorsements were appreciated all the more because they were NEVER automatic, and we offered REAL protection to members who were occasionally preyed upon by ignorant brass hats. A union beef on a miss-applied work rule ALWAYS made the Sheriff's desk, and sometimes the City Desk of the newspaper as well. Consequently, our union didn't have to do many beefs, usually these conflicts could be sorted out informally.

Nope, my experience with unions has been positive. I can read the horror stories as well as you, Phil, but I'm NOT ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Phil

Unions in general, and especially when they represent government employees, have colluded to deny people their right to freely associate. For this reason alone, they should be busted up.

I have a right to work for any employer that will hire me without being forced to join a union and pay their protection racket fee. Any state that is without right to work laws is an anti-liberty state, plain and simple.

There are no pro-liberty arguments that can be made in favor of labor unions. Unions are as collectivist as it gets.

Ragin' Dave

Problem is, you wouldn't have half the budget problems in this state without the unions, and the unions haven't done themselves one single favor in their thuggish tactics over the past week or so. If their argument for existence was so good, they wouldn't need to resort to the level of goon tactics. As far as I'm concerned, the unions can go the way of the dinosaur.

And let's be honest - it's not as if Walker is outlawing unions. If unions value are as people say, then let the prove it.

ED. NOTE:

I appreciate your frankness, Dave, but the sorry political facts are that the WI budget WAS balanced before Gov. Walker cut taxes, unbalancing it. He then blamed that unbalanced budget on the public employees, which was a canard of the first order. Not only that, but in doing a re-balancing of the budget, he went the extra light-year, and decided to end collective bargaining rights. Doing that returns the public employees to the days 50 or 60 years ago when they were basically just serfs, and most of their jobs were political patronage, anyway. No one wants to return to those days, and especially YOU shouldn't want to return to those days, Dave, because guess what? In those days, ALL of those political machines with all those patronage jobs were Democratic Machines.

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